**Transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence.**

Paul Martin
Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of Paul Martin's Crucial Conversations. Today we are going to have a crucial conversation with Darin Tucker. Darin is a physical therapy assistant and the CEO of Peak Physical Therapy. Peak is a 13 clinic company in Idaho and Washington State. And back on December 31st, 2021, peak physical therapy entered into a partnership with confluent health. So congratulations, Darin, and welcome.

Darin Tucker
Well, thank you. Thank you. And thank.

Paul Martin
It's great to have you. Really great to have you. So, Darren, I want to talk to you about today. Is a little bit of the difference and uniqueness of what we would consider a marquee company in this industry. And like it or not, you are a marquee company in this industry at 13 clinics and real strong cash flow. You are certainly in that marquee division for sure. What was your. Let's go way back. Let's go way back. What was your plan and vision for your company when you decided to go into private practice?

Darin Tucker
Yeah, you know, I think initially, like most, I just wanted to work for myself because as you start, you know, clinical practice, you have your own ideologies, your belief systems, you know, and you want to be able to, you know, put those very things into your own practice. Now, was growth a part of our future plan? Without a doubt. I think we're all competitors in the private, you know, is just private business. And so as we we laid the foundation, the beginnings, just and even our name selection, we did we chose something neutral, wasn't tied to our name, wasn't tied to a region, wasn't tied to our state. So if and when we had the opportunity to grow, we weren't self restricted and then we weren't obligated to if our name was on the shingle to maybe always have a presence.

Paul Martin
So so you so you really knew from the very beginning when you went into practice that you would be a multi clinic and at some point potentially a multi-state company? Is that what I'm hearing from you?

Darin Tucker
Well, I don't know if I knew that, but I think I wanted that. You know, I just pushed all of our chips to the middle and said, let's just play the game and hope it goes well. Yeah.

Paul Martin
So walk us through a little bit on how you built this business and where it was kind of before you decided to find a bigger and a larger partner. Yeah.

Darin Tucker
Yeah. So, you know, like life, it's a lot of trial and error. And so as we went into our business the first two years, pretty painful. So, you know, how I look back on that is I think is is the with as a practitioner, you know, you can be a good practitioner or a great practitioner, but that doesn't make you, you know, fit to maybe govern the business because those things aren't the same. And so I found when we started the practice, we gave our practice what we wanted it to have. And it's not what the business needed. I mean, we struggled for the first year for sure, and we just really couldn't figure it out until we you know, and I was I'm a numbers guy, you know, I have spreadsheets all over the place. But we didn't look at them very often and we didn't make decisions by them. And so I just knew that we needed more information. I needed more education than what I currently had when it came down to the industry. And so we reached out for more help. And I was reaching out for not support, but we were doing well. I was looking for what do I not know and what am I doing poorly that is making me suffer at this level. And so that's where objective management really comes in. Pivotal, huge piece. So, you know, as I worked my own staff and even as a I think to myself, I really encourage, you know, practitioners or business owners treat your practice like you treat your patients. You know, you want to identify first what's going well and what's not. You want to objectify everything because as you so well known, you said a thousand times, if you cannot measure it, you cannot manage it, you know, and then establish a plan and modify that plan all the time frequently. And so we you know, I took home as we started some of this training, all that, you know, those light bulb moments that go off for, you know, owners or PDS that seek, you know, consulting or help or education. Oh, man, the light bulbs are going off left and right and all our guns are coming to the surface like, oh, my gosh, I'm such an idiot. Excellent. Because it gives us that opportunity to grow. So really, I started to dig on the data dig on the data hardware I would take back in the paper chart world. I would take all our chalk. So and I would go over I look for patterns and I think everything in life has a pattern. There's a pattern to everything. We just maybe sometimes don't see that pattern. So I was looking at script referrals, who's referrer and who's showing up, who's cancer and who's no show and looking for maybe some common denominators that we could control in. And then I started to see a pattern emerge. And so we started to write our systems for the organization, things that we could follow. So I equate that to a recipe. If you give me a recipe to baking a cake or anything else, if I'm off the rails didn't turn out, I just have to find out where my recipe is wrong, what I committed, or maybe what I did in addition to that was unnecessary. So we created, if you will, systems that allows us to have that that management oversight and self-correct doesn't mean we're not, you know, good people if something goes wrong just means we just didn't do something that was maybe as right as it could be. And that made a substantial difference. So it took us from the world of I hope we're doing things right or I think our business needs this to now. I deem it is macronutrients. We have carbohydrates, proteins and fats. We have things that are vital for survival, let alone thriving. And once we identify those, let me tell you, it is not even comparable. And so, you know, we started to get into, you know, growth from, you know, startups or even acquisitions. And of course, through everything you do, you know, tains a teacher, you know, it's a sense. And so just call allowed us to evolve. So, you know, are are policy books, if you will. I just did them our book of failures because whatever if something doesn't go right, let's just call call it is what it is and then put in some successful action that maybe would be better. And so it just allowed us to become a little bit more fluid with our actions and with, you know, business. It's all numbers to a large degree. It allows us to make sure that we're not, you know, underperforming or even over staffing because we are underperforming. Because I like to say with management, you know, we often just overstaffed, inefficient things rather than fix them. And so that got us to the point to where, you know, resources run thin, as does time. And if we want to continue to raise the bar or pursue those that next level, I you know, everyone needs help. Yeah, that's our field in the health care field. So it's, you know, it's time to start courting or looking.

Paul Martin
Yeah. Darn. You know, a couple of things that you said in there really jumped out at me. One was, you know, we need to objectify what we do. And, you know, and the second was that once we've seen and we've, you know, put these objectives into place, now we need systems to actually carry them out. And I really believe, Darren, while, yes, some more locally focused business owners are doing that, probably not to the level that you have done that through the years to have created what you have created, which is not just numbers of clinics and amount of EPA data or any of that, but you've created something really special that I think my sense has always been to work in your company would really be a great place to work.

Darin Tucker
And I think sometimes we do that, you know, the lack of systems in an interest in being liked or liked or not being maybe perceived as overbearing or micromanagement, you know. But we quickly found out that if people are all doing things their own way, I just created my chaos. I can't manage randomly. And so it's like, ooh, no, no, no, no, no. With a good heart, you know, and good, you know, a philosophic direction. We just all have to be on the same page, you know, so that, you know, we have that sanity and then we can we are better positioned to help. You know, employees are employees. Heck, help us.

Paul Martin
Sure. So down in the building, your company and at some point it hit you that you were ready to find a larger partner. When was that? And give me that kind of a repeat. Go back on what that thought process was.

Darin Tucker
You know, and this was it was 2014. I'll give you a specific data and still see it when I when that decision came into my head because I was and we just did an acquisition and it was in remote areas of Idaho and it required me commuting for two years and it's a six hour drive. So I ended up staying up there with my in-laws. So I moved back home, so to speak, you know, and we're we're getting that clinic on it, on its feet doing well. But as I continued to look out through the telescope of just what our company, what I wanted to be, I just knew that I couldn't continue to displace myself at that level and that I didn't want to rush, you know, into a decision of that magnitude. So I started conversations back in 2014. I started talking to, you know, scouting out some of the big players. I started talking to some, you know, private equity firms. I had brokers calling me, but I just wanted to make sure that I aligned myself with the right people because every business owner, oh, my gosh, you know that you work so hard, you bleed from the eyes, you commit. I mean your life to you know, the success of your clinic, your family is dependent on the success. So I wanted to make sure that when I did make the decision, it was the right decision. And then as I continued to grow the organization, it was done in a manner that would be highly attractive to buyers. So in all those conversations, even those conversations, were you know, maybe is not going to be the right fit. What do they look for? What do they like? What don't they like? And then I looked across the different platforms and looked for what they all had in common. What do they all have in common? What do they all look for and want? So that when we decided to make that decision, I'd be, well, highly attractive. You know, like I think your team said that be the prettiest girl at the desk. And so I began that in 2014. And then as things got closer, then I did some on campus visits to where then I could really, you know, with them get a feel for not necessarily just their organization, but the people behind the organization. Because in the end work is work. And I want to like the people I work with. And if and I walked out of some meetings, if you will, that maybe, you know, their platform was fantastic. They had a lot of promise, but things didn't resonate that culture fit. I thought, no, I think I want to do more harm than good. So I gave myself, yes, seven years to go through that process. Not that it has to take long. I knew that I wasn't ready then, but I better become ready in case the market as it is when the market's ripe. You want to be ready? Sure.

Paul Martin
So as a and I'm going to call you this again, a marquee company, marquee business owner, what do you believe you were seeking different and what you believed should be available for you based on your size, scope and level of your company?

Darin Tucker
Yeah. You know, I was looking for compatible resources, I guess, and I have to boil it down. Compatible resources. So number one on the resource size. So outside of things as you as well multi-headed, you have to be, you know, multitask things as you grow things because I don't want to overstaffed because that hurts your bottom line and you know, it creates inefficiencies at times. And I don't I am not learning what I need to learn if I handed over too soon, in my opinion. So I'm looking for resources because I did reach that point of work saturation like, oh my gosh, I can work long and hard, but I'm running time in the day here. So that becomes evident just based on how you feel, you know, the burdens that you carry. So I looking for the resources that could unweighted me in areas because I like to say we've been and when you do things yourself all the time, we're playing the game with one hand tied behind your back. So I wanted to be have, you know, tie up with an organization that could bring to the table some valuable resources, but not change who I am and who we are because our company got to where it is based on what we believe it. So, you know, we only do what we believe in is a game, a philosophy. And so that compatibility and then, you know, extremely enormous, I would say more important than, say, even the resources, because every big is going to have resources. But just that human compatibility piece, number one, how are the individuals be positive, you know, easy to collaborate with and then ideology wise, does that organization, you know, really, truly believe in? No, a certain ideology is that ideology parallel to ours? Because that's how we write our our our our policies and our procedures is based upon an ideology. So I needed that company to really be compatible with the individuals and with the philosophies and then have resources that were on Wheaties. Because now, as we, we, we cross that bridge. Yeah. Now it's time for us to truly hit our stride, to evolve as we've always, you know, become that organization that we've always wanted to be. But we've been a little bit self-limited.

Paul Martin
Yeah, yeah. I love that word. You use compatible resources because as you said, there are many companies that are offering resources and but very specific to your company and to the level of which you have built your company. Not all the companies out there with resources brought compatible resources for you. And yeah, I think a great thought process on how to get where you need to get for a company like yours.

Darin Tucker
Thanks. There's an excellent.

Paul Martin
So when somebody has accomplished what you have accomplished in your business, it does kind of raise the bar on who you're willing to work with and move forward with. Talk to me a little bit about, you know, kind of the bar level you had on. Like you said, you explored over many number of years. How did you eliminate and keep in companies as you moved through and and wanted to start a process.

Darin Tucker
Yeah. And so this were in the, you know some of the information coming up I as I reached out over the seven years I got, you know, I started in network, you know, and I started to, you know, find my people I thought would be, you know, compatible or might be, you know, good possibilities. But I knew that, you know, gosh, the landscape of rehab is much larger than I can access, without a doubt. And so that's where you you really start to think, you know, I think I need more than what I have. So that's why I reached out to. Martin health care, because, you know, I need more information. I need more information so they can go fishing for me. Cause we are fishing. We're we're out there fishing for, you know, a good catch. That is it's a win win because, you know, for this process, you know, I definitely wanted to make sure I brought resources that were compatible. Why? So I can continue to grow my organization because we all have a fire in our belly and we want to make sure that, you know, each decision that we make, you know, gives us this next tier of growth. I just know I need help in that regard and I need, you know, external help to bring more options to my plate because I want to grow a way. And when I find that relationship, I want that to be a win win because I think that is the right thing to do. And that compatibility, if if someone comes to me as well, give me an opportunity to partner with them. I owe it to them to grow. So I want to make sure their visions for me and for themselves again are compatible. And and so I would say your team stellar job of going out there and looking East Coast to West Coast to all those people that would, you know, fit my profile. And then with some conversations through the process of your phone calls or zoom meetings, yeah, we got to have some, you know, coffee dates, you know, some nice chit chat that allowed us to narrow the funnel to where, you know, we had a serious crew of people that we could really, you know, visit with more intimately to find out which one would be the best. And I like to tell even my own my own company, my own staff, this decision transcends just me. My company is much larger than I. So I want to make sure the decision that I make impact in a very positive way. Everybody that I employ because my company is going to be around just like, you know, your previous company or any owners is going to be around much longer than the owner themselves. So I want to have this be a very much a pay it forward action, pay it for for my family, a pay it forward for my staff and a pay it forward for the organization that chose to partner with me. So, I mean, it should be a win win win. And I just needed I needed a larger pool to choose from. Then you know what I was able to first person you'll find myself.

Paul Martin
Yeah. You know Darren, the, the, the way in which you went through educating yourself and as I think you had noted, you said you were really networking, right? You were networking with some of the largest medium smaller acquirers in the country, getting to know them, how you did that and still built this company at the same time, I will never know. But you are a remarkable business owner. And then again, I think it sounded like, you know, choosing to have someone help you to make sure that you were able to find the compatible resources. So what was the moment? And walk us through that moment that you determined that Confluent was the right fit for you.

Darin Tucker
Yeah. And even say before it you know type of a because I will because consultant rocks I mean did a great job you know it's a matter of trying to make that decision, you know, because it's, you know, do we use, you know, a third person? We use a broker to help negotiate a deal because the first person, even myself I mean, it's it's the elephant in the room we all need to acknowledge is, you know, it's a cost. Well, if I use someone, it's going to cost me. But yes, it is it may cost you dearly if you don't type a deal. And and I really from the owners standpoint, again, I mean, I've you know, creator systems really, you know, from scratch. I've gone through, you know, a lot of the data I hand on my books. I have, you know, all our own algorithms. And I really find that I know my operate extremely well in the finance as well however, is, you know, is sure to work with your team. I don't know it as well as they know to the level that it needs to be understood. You know that can be that it can represent my company or anybody else's company at that national level, because we all know that if you know, I don't give you a bank information, you know, if there's something that doesn't make sense, it creates doubt and uncertainty. It is not clean. They automatically have doubt. And I didn't want to have any doubt that I was going to be represented well. And I didn't want to create any doubt because that would impact my value or maybe lose me an opportunity. So and very respectful of the daughter dollar being, you know, a very aware of, you know, the cost. But it is it this exchange, just like the service that we provide to patients, is health care expensive? Yeah, but is it valuable? You bet you it is. You know that people value value. And so as I made that decision, like, you know what? You know, I know I'm going to need to reach out to make sure that if I want the best for my company, I have to death. Pick the best people who can represent my company in a highly competitive industry. And so I got, you know, compatibility culture very important. But, you know, being getting to know you just via some of your Friday moments, you know, crucial moments. Yeah, I like what I hear. I hear a lot of me in you. I hear the education. And then, you know, I reached out. We had some conversations. Very good, you know, because, again, I want to be able to, you know, share burger with somebody that I want to work with. And, you know, I felt that you heard me, you know, because you automatically set a date. You came out, shared a burger, visited where we're looking for. And so, you know, beyond just a resource was compatible. And I thought, I like Paul, that was really good. I really enjoyed it. We talk shop very much at ease and so it got us into now let's start data sharing. And so, you know, I had had some other conversation with different people, but you know, honestly and this is I mean, this is almost true to our our industry. Well, I just felt like a number just another guy. It's like, you know, patient compliance. If you don't give that patient time, if you don't make them feel relevant, they'll go away. And there's some people that. Yeah, I just wanted to go away. Yeah. So again, I wanted that compatibility and then of course next the expertize because I know my, I think my business well. However when I started talking to some of you know your team well they know it accessibly well and then they give me first person information on how I compare to, you know, like similar companies. Where are we strong nationally? Where are we weak nationally? And that's a a weakness question is though I always pose. So hey, Tom. Hey, Joe. Where you're wasting tell me where my company is weak because that to me is opportunity. So again, I default to me as a practitioner. Now we identify object fi everything is a practitioner but but a successful treatment plan is really predicated on the weakness on the deficit because if we identify that, get that patient on board, let me tell you, they do so well often, so quickly because they identify and work on the deficit. Sometimes business owners or even practitioners. We polarize a deficit because we take it personal. Know to me upside is all about the deficit. So, you know, with your team to this process, like tell me where I stink, tell me where I can do better. And at the same time, if I'm doing better in your I if I'm doing good in an area, tell me why that is. So I can throw, you know, a bolster underneath it. Underneath it, I want to support the strike, but I definitely have to work hard on the weaknesses. So we just perpetually narrow the margins so you get compatible resources, the same default answer. But you know, you sold yourself to me as an individual and then the resources were behind. It made me want to dig deeper into your organization and you tee that up in a very easy, fast fashion because to me, interest is speed. If someone's disinterested, there's no speed.

Paul Martin
Yeah. And darn, you know, I will tell you that you have a marquee business. You're a marquee business owner and you are a marquee client as well. Consistent only having constantly, I should say, with that curiosity, how can I be better? Like you said, tell me where I stink. I'm not sure you stink really anywhere. But yes, we were able to dig in and show you some areas that, you know, we could, you know, present better and I'd you know, it makes me feel really, really good that you feel great about the process we went through and the result. So now what I want to know is, you know, guys like you, you're always thinking in the future, you now have the compatible resources alongside of you. What's your vision for the future?

Darin Tucker
So continue growth for sure. So our ability to grow now, you know, is not going to be as slow or as arduous, if you will. So I call it I see that we've grown organically. You know, I earn a dollar and I save a nickel. I earn a dollar, earn I save another nickel. And so you really have to strategically stage your growth this because it is it's economics. So we really created our company from, you know, the science based components. It's an physiology and it's accounting, very factual components. And so, you know, we had to use acquisitions and started but again, it was, you know, it was slower just because it's, you know, it's a first person, you know, support system. But now with, you know, someone like, you know, with with Confluent, we have the resources on wages. And so I think our growth, you know, about double, triple be able to do that I see that without a doubt. Without a doubt. We've done a number of acquisitions. We've done like nine acquisitions over our time, independently handled and done. But those that's a that's a can be a heavy lift but that that lift all that data dig in the due diligence get the payables and vendors, all that goes away. Now I get to go find a compatible organization that we can help them grow alongside this very much like this strategic partnership. And in our new partner Confluent, now they get a handle, all that heavy lifting stuff and they have experts in that. And it gives me enormous peace of mind and satisfaction to know that I don't have to do that anymore. What what I going to do is step in and help facilitate the systems that we know that we get to put in our own pictures, go therapy systems and facilitate, you know, my team to their team, first person that's going to really honestly accelerate the game. And so with this process and we are new to Confluence Team as a first of the year, but we we started up a new clinic two weeks ago, you know, that was in the works prior to and then we're looking at submitting an LOI on another one to hopefully kick off not too long down the road. But now we're going to just focus on, you know, doing great works that are, you know, well-received and acknowledged so that that just leads to in store growth, lower growth, but also look for external opportunities if that is a startup or if that's an acquisition. So it frees us to do what we really find exciting, what we love. And that's the art of beauty. And there's, you know, business owner. I love to expand, you know, because that's gratifying. And again, it's just as a thinking about my own individual team, you know, more is always more. I want to be able to provide more to my staff, new staff or staff that's been around for 20 years, you know, so, you know, I find that I am where I am. We are where we are because of all their excellent work. And so we have to grow just so that we continue to provide more opportunity for existing staff. We can hire more people, stimulate the economy, we can get into different territories and provide just more health care resources. In Confluent these these strategic partnerships which may give pause to now lights the fuze if you can find that compatibility in the resources all it's going to do is set you free and that you know the day that we signed and I say we made it that we did it now cut me free. Oh, let's play the game together with people who are as excited about the industry as much as we are. And that stuff that I got from you, from, you know, your team, Joe and Tom, and that I get from every confluent employee that I've spoke to so far, they love what they do, and all they want to do is help.

Paul Martin
Yeah, it's it's really cool. You see this road and that road when you were completely independent, had stop signs and a car broken down on the side that you had to go around and you had to maybe a police car pulling over at some point. Yeah. And it's all these stuff. And now I feel like you see this road to where you really want to get as a very clear path because some of those, you know, arduous processes of, like you said, going through due diligence on a potential acquisition, writing the yellow eyes, going through all that you can keep operating and driving that business. Choose the right partner is out there now for you to roll up for you and really talk about value creation. I can't wait to see where you get to in the next 3 to 5 years. I think you're going to break some hit records. I really do.

Darin Tucker
Well, I'm excited. I mean, every day is like, oh, my gosh, I talked to, you know, we have team meetings on a regular and the nice thing is you get a group of people who resonate at the same level. Your energy levels are about the same, you know, because they're all about helping and helping one another back and forth. And it just fires you up. You know, I've been able to be around, but a bunch of other CEOs and now we're collaborating, you know, back and forth and that from recruiting on inefficiencies and your staff and components. So now we have a huge think tank and in that energy, man, let me tell you, it just keeps it just builds upon itself. And so it just yeah. Increase your desire to want to grow. And again, it is a very liberating piece because now I don't have to do all the work that is necessary, I just get to do it because now they'll do that stuff which is excessively important for you. The fun things.

Paul Martin
It's really well. Darren, what you're going to add to that think tank, I'm going to tell you, is going to be exceptional. And I'm sure they are going to benefit as much as you are going to benefit from being in that think tank. Darren, you have been great to work with. I really appreciate you get getting along with us today and sharing this information with our audience. And I want to thank you for your participation and I hope to talk to you in the very near future.

Darin Tucker
Yeah. Hey, my pleasure. And any way I can help anybody for sure. And I really encourage even the, you know, the business owners out there that are on the fence or know for a fact that they're not ready yet. That's totally okay. But I would say, you know, start positioning to be ready, you know, reach out and start to position yourself to, you know, be acquired. Because every single practice owner, I don't care what industry we are in, we, we, we build it to sell it. I mean, because it is an investment. So I would say definitely, you know, reach out and and heck yeah. I mean I'm an advocate for you guys reach out to Martin health care and get some you get your data assessed and and find out what your timeframe looks like. You know, where you're strong and where you're weak and because, say, your your the work that you did for me was, you know, stellar and I call it a grand slam. And you guys have work ethic, phenomenal. And, you know, I come from a family of farmers and loggers, blue collar work ethic, and I don't give work praise lightly. You know, and let me tell you, your team might get to an emails and we're exchanged of 11:00 at night and I'm thinking, holy crap, these guys might outwork me. And that made me feel a little bit like, I better buck up, I better work harder. Yeah. And then, you know, that the, the data, the portfolio that you guys created on the company really super good. And I've done acquisition wins in some of the sellers that I've worked with had brokers, which means that I get access to their portfolios, you know, their, their SIM packets and then tell you you're really good. I mean, the information that I wanted as a buyer. Yeah, because sometimes you get a packaged information like that that I don't need to read all that. I'm looking for some key kids and sometimes that's data. I mean, you get a lot of, you know, frosting, you know, in some of those bags, like irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant. Sometimes I can't find what I'm truly looking for. And your guys's read very clean, presented very well. I don't know. It was good. It's the best I've seen. I told you, Tom and Joe. Excellent. I mean, that reads really super well because I. I read my, you know, Sam, that you guys created it as a seller. Would you? I sorry.

Paul Martin
I gotcha. Yeah.

Darin Tucker
I know. If I want to buy, what am I looking for and does it stand off the page and is it consistent? Do I look do I see that financial or numeric consistency through the entire document? And if I eliminate the frosting, what am I left? Yeah So, I mean, all that was top notch. And, you know, it's it's a grand slam. I mean, for me, my family Grand Slam, me and my company. You bet you. A lot of forward moving opportunities for everybody in my company, Grand Slam. You know that the partnership that I created, you know, as far as chose with Confluent, honestly, I don't think I could have done any better. And then representation aces. So, you know, I don't know. I look back on the whole process and I have zero regret, you know, because I don't think I can say that as a business owner at times. So it's like, Oh my God, I so regret that decision or that experience is so horrible. But, you know, it's been, you know, awesome from day one to today.

Paul Martin
Well, and you have been awesome as well. And I thank you for your time today. And for any of you out there that have any questions on anything that I discuss with Darren today, just click below. Let's talk. Thank you very much for joining us today. And I look forward to talking to all of you in the very near future. And Darren, thank you again.

Darin Tucker
You're welcome. Thank you very much.